Love, Not H8
Sometimes, when we’re watching an old film, or listening to classic rock, my husband will wistfully say, “I wish I had lived during the sixties.” To which I always respond — not I. In the 60’s, life was peace, love, and The Beatles for some. For others, it was Motown, protests, fire hoses, and hatred. And I always remind my husband — we probably would not have gone to college together and shared those free love good times. Also, it would have been illegal for us to be married up until 1967, when Loving v. Virginia finally struck down miscegenation laws. In the year 2000, the state of Alabama became the last state to repeal its law against mixed-race marriage. In the year 2000!
I am still so proud that America saw beyond race and chose the man I considered to be the best candidate — Barack Obama — to be the next President of the United States.
His victory sends a huge message to the world, that America is indeed a country of tremendous opportunity and promise. The struggles of folks like the Lovings — and Barack Obama’s own parents who surely faced judgment for their relationship in their time as well — have paid off in visible and real ways. We have come so far in terms of civil rights, and this past election was proof of that.
But in terms of equal rights, I believe that this country just took a real step backwards — in Arkansas, where a law passed to prevent unmarried couples from adopting or serving as foster parents, in California with the passage of Proposition 8, and in my state of Florida where Amendment 2 passed. As someone who’s in a marriage that would have once been deemed illegal, I find the parallels between this country’s attitude towards interracial marriage and same-sex marriage to be dismaying and disheartening. And I am not alone — the late Mildred Loving felt the same way, and spoke out in favor of same-sex marriage before she passed away this year. “I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry… That’s what Loving, and loving, are all about,” she declared.
Growing up in the Caribbean, I think I’ve heard just about every argument against homosexuality, every derisive slur, every religious condemnation. Sometimes it feels pointless to argue against people who believe insane things, who act like somehow being gay makes you less of a person. All I can do is assume that they didn’t grow up around gay people. They didn’t have gay relatives or friends. They couldn’t have — otherwise they’d understand that being gay is not a choice. It’s not something you wake up and decide to be, to be shocking or edgy. It is who you are born to be, same as I was born to be a black woman. They would understand that gay, straight, black, white, Latin, Asian, whatever you are - people are people, with the same emotions and needs that we all have.
Seeing the subtle and not-so-subtle discrimination that my gay friends and relatives have endured has had an effect on me. It’s made me jaded towards the “religious” arguments against homosexuality.
I can’t fully understand how someone could call themselves Christians, or spiritual, or “good people,” and say that they believe in a loving and just God, but then simultaneously pour down such fire and brimstone judgment on others because of their sexual orientation. It reveals stunning hypocrisy, in my view.
I have noticed that those who condemn homosexuality tend to pick and choose their Biblical verses very carefully. The verses chosen always come from The Book of Isaiah, or Kings, or Leviticus. Very seldom do these folks consider Matthew, chapter 7 verse 12, the Golden Rule, in their arguments — “Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.” Or John chapter 8 verse 7 — let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
I guess these people consider themselves to be without sin, and therefore capable of judging others. But to be really real with you — I don’t believe religious arguments should even matter in this arena. In a country that purports to embrace the separation of church and state, I honestly don’t get how the California Supreme Court decision that recognized same-sex marriage in California as an equal right could be overridden. It is disturbing and scary to me that the rights already granted to the citizens of California could even be taken away, even by a popular vote. I can’t imagine how it would make me feel, if Loving v. Virginia was somehow, someday revoked.
Marriage is such a special commitment. But according to information at DivorceRate.org, 50% percent of first marriages, 67% of second and 74% of third marriages end in divorce. There are drive through wedding chapels, so if you’re wasted and whimsical in Vegas you can make two bad decisions at once. I’ve known people — Catholics, mind you! — who have had two or three divorces. We watch and cackle at reality television competitions that steer couples towards the altar and end with a rose ceremony — and often, a ring and an on-bended-knee proposal of marriage. So it makes me laugh when straight people say things like marriage is sacred, when it’s been made into such a mockery by so many.
Then you’ll hear arguments like, “I don’t have a problem with gay people, let them be together… call it a civil union, just don’t call it marriage.” Why not? I don’t believe that allowing same sex couples to get married in any way diminishes my own marriage. How on earth would granting the right of a man and another man, or a woman and another woman to be legally joined, affect me? Quite simply, it doesn’t.
I agreed completely with Keith Olbermann’s special comment on Prop 8. I thought his passion was palpable, his words eloquent, and his meaning clear.
I believe that love is love. And people are people. I believe that if two consenting adults love each other and want to get married, they should be able to.
In the meantime, the Proposition 8 movement is provoking expression from wonderful and unexpected sources. Brilliant comedian and former Afrobella of the Week Wanda Sykes had spoken out humorously about gay marriage before, in her stand up special. But because of Prop 8, she is now one of very few black celebrities I can think of who has come out of the closet. Wanda just revealed that she herself has a wife. And I bet they are an adorable couple!
In Wanda’s own words: “Gay is not a choice. That’s like telling me I chose to be a woman, I chose to be black…I am proud to be a woman, I’m proud to be a black woman, and I’m proud to be gay. Now let’s go and get our damn equal rights!”
Anna Quindlen’s great Newsweek essay, The Loving Decision outlines the similarities, and reveals the inevitiability that someday soon, there will be a Loving vs. Virginia for same sex marriage. It’s only a matter of time. Someday, it will seem crazy that same sex marriage was once deemed illegal. Someday. In the meantime, we’re in for more protests and anger, heartbreak and struggle, here in America the land of the free and the home of the brave.
I am not a blogger of color alone in lamenting the passage of Prop 8 and Amendment 2. Jack and Jill Politics, Pam’s House Blend, Incredible Juju, Racialicious, Acts of Faith, That Girl Has Issues, Noctuary, and Simply Fred Smith all did wonderful, informative, eloquent posts examining race and it’s place in the passage of Prop 8. They are all worth a read. And FYI, I got the photo above from this pro-same sex marriage Facebook group.
I expect this to be the kind of post that provokes comments with vastly differing opinions. Please feel free to express yours, but I ask that you remain respectful in doing so.
What are your views on this very hot button issue, bellas and fellas?
Afrobella Issues, not a good look, random randomness |127 Responses to “Love, Not H8”
Girl I couldn’t agree more. I”m so glad you shared your thoughts, esp. with a Caribbean background. Being here in T”dad, it’s hard sometimes having gay friends or holding sexual equality views, as there is so much condemnation and fundamentalist thinking. LIke you I also hope and believe that it is all just a matter of time.
TriniGourmet, so glad a fellow Trini is speaking out! I was just talking to my brother who was telling me about a really nice new bar, and how it’s a shame because everyone says it’s a gay bar so nobody wants to go to it! SMH at that ignorance. I can’t wait to come down so I could go and have a drink there. Great to hear from you.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for this wonderful and insightful post. You really hit the nail on the head with this one. If I typed all that I have to say, you would be reading a novel. But let me just say this. I am a woman, I am black, I am a lesbian and I am Christian. The only thing I willingly chose to be was the latter of the 4.
While I have blogged on this as well. What boggles my mind is that people claim that a civil union is the same (in legal rights) as marriage, but let’s see how many people would opt to give up their marriages for “civil unions”.
Thank you for your support and keep up the great blogging.
Bella, during slavery the Bible was also used to justify slavery and now it’s being used to justify H8. I think it’s scary that we live in a time where we see rights being taken away. This is reflective of the outgoing administration’s legacy. I mourn for what has happened to this forward thinking country and I hope that we will rebound.
I live in San Francisco, and it’s great to see the level of involvement in attempting to overturn Prop 8. I don’t understand how people can’t see this simply for what it is, someone’s right to live just like you and me.
As a black woman and a Christian, I am hurt that they overturned the right for gay marraige. You love who you love! Equal rights took a step back on that one! How can people have the audacity/nerve to dictate an emotion. I believe man has & continues to twist the Bible to use for his own selfish purposes. I just do not see God in denying people the right to love!
Great post bella. As a women of Caribbean descent, multi-racial, and in an interracial relationship, I know exactly where you’re coming from. It amazes me the changes that happen in our country that people seem to forget about. At one point, women weren’t allowed to vote. Today, no one would think to stop a women from going to the polls. At one point, interracial and intercultural marriages were illegal, and today they are more accepted and legtimized by law. Someday, homosexuals will be able to marry, and it won’t be such a controversial subject. Marriage should be a right, not a heterosexual privilege.
It appalls me that people actually voted for discrimination. That’s basically what it was. I agree with you Bella, how does gay marriage affect straight marriages? It’s like they think their marriage is going to be less valuable because a gay couple can get married. You are right–people have such short memories in this country. I would be angered if my right to marry anyone I choose got taken away, so I can empathize with how gay people across the nation must be feeling. I didn’t choose to be straight and I don’t think folks choose to be gay either.
I have totally turned away from religion. Religion is responsible for so much pain and misery in the world. The passage of Prop. 8, with the Mormon Church backing it, is another example of the pain the religion causes.
I believe in God but I want nothing to do with anyone’s religion.
Great post friend! I feel passionately about this one. I am also in an interracial relationship, and it was that relationship that allowed me real insight into what we must do to win this struggle. My girlfriend’s mother, a Korean-American, remarried to a Caucasian guy from Alabama who was stationed over there. When I met him, I was sure that he’d be very open-minded considering the generation in Alabama that he came and moved against in his interracial marriage. Alas! We were in a discussion about the same-sex marriage issue and he, a stringent Evangelical Christian, began Biblically informing me about the threat of s.s.marriage to marriage and how happy he was that it was outlawed on Nov. 4th in those states. What a mind-bender! From someone who struggled against the marriage stigma himself!
Once I wrapped my mind around that position, I realized that the “religiosity” of our society is the real source of our problem. Please note that I say “religiosity” not in mockery of religion itself, but only in its tragic, absurd distortion. Unfortunately, the path towards equal rights to our gay brothers and sisters goes through that religiosity, cause religiosity has a vote. And no state is inoculated from such hate. As it were, even the bastion of liberalism that is California is subject to such hate. I am actually of the mind that this movement can be won first in the churches, only then to spill over into the public domain. This is an issue of Spiritual Identity to so many people, despite it’s nonsense. It is that identity that must be changed. Until that happens, people like my potential future father and law (sigh) will continue to see this issue as a Biblical choice between good and evil. It’s so easy and attractive for them to see the gay lifestyle as a sin. They have Old Testament verse and the intoxicating comfort that comes with “at least I’m not breaking THAT rule”. This is a struggle not only against bigotry, but also against the corruption of the true message of Love that lives within the message of Christianity. Convince people - at church - that Matthew 7:12 is what it’s all about, then you have a voting block powerful enough to write a new civil rights amendment. High hopes, gotta have em.
Like Wanda said, “if you are against gay marriage, don’t get gay married!”
My folks are from the Caribbean and I understand what you mean about the homophobia. Maybe the younger generation will be more open minded.
Great info here. But I still stand on the belief that just like all the other choices in the world sexuality is a choice not given at birth. I am not agaisnt homosexuals and respect them just like all other human beings. But I do not agree with wrapping that decision under the same category as race. Above all gifts God gave us is FREE WILL. We create the life we live.
Hi bella a very good post but I have to disagree. To compare the gay marriage with civil right is completely wrong. I am an African American woman that’s not a choice that’s who I am. If I want to I can marry a woman that’t my choice. Civil rights and the gay marriage arguement cannot hold up. I have many gay friends and nothing against there choices however if that’s the lifestyle they choose then why should they be given the same rights as a straight couple. We can argue back and forth about this but this country was built on christian principles. Yes those same principles were used to enslave us. But there is no mistake what the bible says about gay relationships it clearly states that God is against them. He does not hate the person but he does not like what they are doing. So in closing I am not without sin and I am not judging but when I voted against Amendment 2 it was through much prayer. I have to stand behind my christian beliefs.
Miss Bella, you are right, this is an extremely hot button issue, its sad that it even has to be an issue and its not going to go away and at the same time it can’t be hushed and left to the side. Especially in my country, you can be killed for being a homosexual and trust there are plenty of people down there living with their partners, keeping the relationship quiet is their protection.
Bella and sisters,
I guess I will be the first to dissent with the above opinions. I am a christian and am an avid proponant of reading the bible for all that it is worth. That means not picking and choosing which verses and chapters that I will embrace or decide are outdated.
With that said. Homosexuality is a sin. It is grouped with a host of other sins that are done within our own bodies including adultery and fornication.
The word of God says in the old and new testaments that homosexuality is a sin against God. Period. And he says that his word is the same yesterday, today and forever. He also says that no one should add nor take away from his word. That means that there are no updated revisions concerning homosexuality and He does not need to be second-guessed.
The problem is that people have used the word of God for their advantage and the disadvantages of others. The Bible does not support slavery, racism, hate, nor cruelty. Many of these things occured in the Bible but if you read it you will see where God objected to them all but allowed us the freedom of choice along with the consequences that followed.
If you truly read the word of God, he says what is right and what is wrong and then proceeds to tell us not to judge one another but to love each other as ourselves. That does not mean that I have loved your sin into something right but that I love you despite your sin just as I hope you love me despite mine.
The Bible says that no sin is greater than the other so if we are pouring out unconditional love it should not matter if that sin be lying, murder, homosexuality, or pride. But loving that person does not mean that the abovementioned things are no longer against God.
As far as a seperation between Church and State, the meaning of that is usually taken out of context. The “founders” intended that the State not be controled by a church and vice versa, it was not intended to promote a communist society where religion is not allowed in politics. NO ONE leaves their values at the door when they enter the public or political arena. Whether you say your values are based on a particular religion or your own made-up ethics, your apply them to every situation that you encounter. No one is objective in the way that people believe the absence of religion allows. We have all decided what we think is right or wrong and we would not want to live in a society that has no sense of right and wrong.
Marriage was the first institution God created and he did it between a man and a woman. And later he specified that it was to be between one man and one woman only. He does not approve of divorce either. So do not let the sins of people discredit the word of GOd. No one is perfect and none of us can cast the first stone but really read that passage in the Bible about Jesus telling the men that he who is without sin to cast the first stone. He shows mercy to the woman caught in adultery but then tells her to go and sin no more. This passage does not justify her sin, it condemns the harsh judgements that we may be prone to casting.
My love for my fellow man or woman is not diminished because they are homosexual. It is my goal to draw them with love. Being a Christain, I am soooo not perfect, but I cannot support laws and policies that go against the word of God. Those include abortion, hate, and same-sex marriage.
There will always be people who misrepresent what it means to be a Christian and love one another. The Bible says they have a zeal of God but not according to knowledge. meaning they can recite the law but they really dont understand it or apply it correctly. But being a Christian is about a personal relationship with God and should not be contingent on the actions of people.
I hope I have explained myself well. It is not my intention to confuse or offend but to uphold the will of God as He has declared it to be. Love…
Opps! I’m not the first anymore, after typing that long repsonse!
This is such a touchy issue, being a christian myself I know the Bible says it is wrong. I used to give the argument that Leviticus says we should not eat meat but we do now. However, my uncle pointed out to me that the meat issue was amended in the new testament and the issue of homosexuality was still denounced I think in about 2 or 3 places in the new testament. Cos some Christians, myself included, believe that we live under grace (new testament) and not under law (old testament).
With that being said, I am very sad that proposition 8 was even brought to the table for discussion or voting. If same sex people getting married does not affect your daily bread or way of life I don’t see why you should tell people who they should or should not marry. That should be between them and God.
Also for everyone that has doubts about Christianity, we can all agree that over the years people have used religion to do some downright evil things just know that it’s an individual thing which stems largely from greed. I have a lot of friends who are Muslims and I will never say they are terrorists just because of their religion.
Miss Bella, I love your website, but of course I have to strongly disagree. As a Christian it pains me to hear people misinterpret the bible. The Bible never condoned slavery; however it acknowledges that it was a practice. Slavery in the Biblical times was not based on race or nationality. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts, or provide for their family. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their master. There were specific instructions on how slaves were to be treated (note: Deut 15:12-15, Ephesians 6:9). Not only that, but Jesus condemned those who were mistreating their bondservants. So when I hear the people say that “well the bible was used to condone slavery (referring to the Africans being kidnapped and forced into slavery), so it can’t be used to condemn homosexuality,” it lets me know that sometimes even people who call themselves Christians don’t read their own bible
In regards to the same sex marriage issues that are steadily being promoted by the media and then being lined up with the civil rights movement is just shameful. Homosexuality is not and identity, but a behavior and a sin, just as stealing, killing, adultery, being judgmental, and etc. However, the wickedness of it is that now we are being told that it is not. I can’t condemn anyone, because I fall short and have sinned. However, I wouldn’t dare tell someone that my wrong is right and that everyone should see it as so, even if I try to wrap it in a blanket and call it “love”. Some things are not natural, and even small children can see that. Jesus taught us to love everyone, but he also told us who would not inherit the kingdom of heaven (Matthew), and homosexuality was one on that long list. Some of the things which I have done, and have had to repent for.
Not only that, marriage was ordained by God - between man and woman. The fact the people now want to redefined marriage and reshape it for their own benefit is a mockery. Let the voices of those who voted against same sex marriage be heard. And let’s pray for our nation because we are in time of strong moral decay.
I wrote about this on my own blog, too. For me, it doesn’t matter what your personal feelings about gay marriage are. The point is, people should not be able to vote on another group’s civil right(s). That is just wrong. ESPECIALLY on the basis of religion. Everyone is not a Christian. This is what separation of church and state is for.
Also, people against this need to hear from normal, well-adjusted children who grew up with gay parents and tell them that gay marriage ruins the sanctity of marriage. I bet they couldn’t.
If marriage is so sacred, why not ban divorce? I just cannot get down with taking away someone’s civil right to marry and enjoy the benefits. If you are not in the marriage, it does not affect you. Period.
It takes courage to speak out on issues and for that I commend you Bella. This is a no brainer for me. I support gay rights. Period. They pay taxes no? So gays should be able to have an ex-husband or ex-wife just like everybody else.
To deny people the right to marry is give them second class status as tax -paying citizens. There is a separation of church and state no? Is that not the law of our land? Then why are some folks insistent upon using the Bible as a tool of oppression? Homosexuality isn’t any more of a choice than being Hetero. And even if being gay were a choice do you think folks would really choose to be gay? With all of the ridicule, ostracism, hatred, rotten eggs and apples that are thrown your way daily?
C’mon people.
All I want to say at this point is I’m glad to see both sides of this discussion displayed in a civil and passionate manner. Thanks to all (so far) for not advocating hatred for anyone, but rather giving your own opinions. Thank you also, Bella, for being brave in your own opinion and allowing this forum to exist.
peace…
See…I find it interesting that we talk about choice and free will in religious terms, but in a secular argument about laws and policy are so quick to legislate the behavior and “choices” of others. Why can’t we be consistent? For those who want to thump Bibles, please realize that the truth is a “two edged sword” and many of you are going to get cut. Using what the Bible defines as sin to determine what is law implies that we can help God judge. Besides, many of the things our laws forbid are not condemned by the Bible…and so we can skip over the historical context, let me give an example. Help me out those who are well read when it comes to the Bible, are slavery or polygamy sins?
I am so amazed at the role the Mormon church has played here. Forget their history of polygamy and the miniscule splinter sects that practice it today in defiance of their church. Forget their history of persecution and flight to Utah. Let’s talk about today. Let’s talk about the discrimination and marginalization Mormons face socially and politically (especially within the Republican party). The irony of a marginalized group (even a relatively privileged one) supporting the marginalization of others is not a coincidence and part of me wonders why we still play these games after all these years.
I still don’t get how it is okay for children to sit in group homes or at orphanages when there are families willing–no, happy–to take them in. I won’t scare you with what’s “really real” in our foster care system, but how many of the people who take the greatest care to legislate who is “fit” to be a a good parent or to define what a family is actually adopt or take in foster children? I bet the stats would closely mirror the stats Michael Moore collected when he surveyed Congress to find out how many of their children were in the military when we declared war against Iraq.
I’m reminded of the words of the late Nina Simone: “You don’t have to live next to me, just give me my equality!”. If you don’t care for gay people, that’s your prerogative. But I don’t think anyone has the right to vote or decide for another group, what is right for them. And I believe this is a civil rights issue; sure, you make the choice regarding who you love, we all do. However, your sexuality is an innate part of your being, much like being black or being a woman; that’s not a choice you make. It’s just who you are.
And since when did one’s marriage become defined by what happens between two other people? It’s interesting how people are up in arms about gay marriage but if they’re so concerned about the sanctity of marriage, they should be throwing a fit about the divorce rate in this country.
Thanks for this great post. I hope the day comes when people can marry whomever they want, and I hope that day comes soon. I too was raised in a Caribbean environment where homosexuality was condemned, but it never felt justified to me. I just couldn’t understand what the big deal was. I also agree that being gay is NOT a choice. Dating people of your same sex is a choice, but actually BEING gay is not.
For those who say homosexuality is a sin, what do you propose these people do? Sexuality cannot be repressed, it will come out no matter what. All that would happen is gay people would wind up married to straight people, all the while still harboring homosexual desires. I’d rather a world where people can be themselves. Sorry, but I’m not trying to be anyone’s beard.
As for religion, topics like this remind me of why Christianity is not the right path for me.
P.S. I would have picked the 70’s over the 60’s, bad fashion notwithstanding. We finally had our civil rights, women’s lib, birth control, etc.
I have to say that I disagree with some of your comments on today’s post. yes, i am a christian, and i do not apologize for that. i will not take total offense on your views about christian, “good people” because i am thinking you were not speaking about the christians that truly have a relationship with Christ. what i’m trying to say is that the world is full of sin, and as a believer you are to hate the sin and not the sinner. i do have family members that are gay, i’ve interned for a gay man, everyone of them know’s that i don’t agree with the lifestyle, but i will not judge you for how you live. that is between you and God. because in God’s eyes, we all fall short, BUT He has given us a tool (the Bible) to help us see where we fall short and calls us a believeres to hold one another accountable. unfortunately, some people take holding someone accountable the wrong way. therefore becoming judgemental and self-righteous. if you are my friend and i see that you are doing something that you shouldn’t be doing (ex: cheating on a spouse) i am called to speak the truth in love.
i would also like to add, that i know of several people who CHOSE to live that lifestyle. and in that same group of people, there are those who made up in their mind that they didn’t want to live that way anymore. i can’t speak for those who feel that this is how they were when they came out of the womb, i can only speak from what i know/whom i know.
my purpose is to not offend anyone. and i think it is wonderful that God has created us with hearts that can get so passionate about things. i’m very passionate about marriage. and i agree that this society has made a mockery of it. the divorce rates are so high not because marriage isn’t sacred, it’s because people don’t understand why it is. some don’t understand its purpose and because of their ignorance, treat it in such a manner that devalues it. It’s like looking at a picture on the wall, and thinking “i guess it’s okay” walking away not realizing that you were looking at a DiVinci.
so please, bella, i am not a person that thinks that i am without sin. i am not asking God to open up heavens doors and send fire upon all those who are gay; or to those who commit murder, or are addicts, or those who have premarital sex…no, my only prayer is that we can see each other how God sees us and ask him to point out the things that we need to get rid of in our lives that holds us back from having a true (non-religious)relationship with him.
i don’t want to judge others because of my beliefs, and i don’t others to judge me becaus of my beliefs. i understand and hear your frustration and your passion about this topic and it for that reason i will not be offended about your comments about christians/believers in general.
sorry for the typos
The Miami Hearld had an article in todays paper about a gay man trying to adopt 2 boys who he’s taken care of for the past 4 years. He can’t adopt them because it is against the law for gays to adopt in Florida. However, convicted felons and drug abusers can! The states argument is that the children can be influenced by the gay lifesyle and grow up with issues. Why should two kids be deprived of a good home because the state disagrees with ones lifestyle? Will the kids have more issues than the majority of kids who grow up in the households of straight parents? I doubt it. I don’t think the government has any right to dictate who you can marry and who should be able to adopt children. Everyone has a right to love and be loved…whom ever they choose.
This was a good post Bella, I totally disagree with you. Our country was built on Christian values and the constitution has always seen marriage as a union between one man and one woman; as does our Lord and Savior. When God said to Adam and Eve “go forth, be fruitful and multiply” well that’s something that only male/female can do.
I don’t judge anyone for a lifestyle that they have chosen to live; only God can do that. I love my gay friends for they who they are but it doesn’t mean that their lifestyle is right with God.
The Old Testament scriptures are the foundation for the New Testament scriptures. They go hand in hand. I admit it can be sad to hear some people quote scriptures out of context. But the God’s word is just what it is and many times people get offended by the Word, but God’s Word is the TRUTH.
God is loving God, but HE (like our parents) will punish us when we do wrong. Romans chapter 1 talks about the wrath of God, when the people began to live outside of His will. Ps 81:12 says So I (God) gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices. Remember God gives us free will (the right to chose). Doesn’t mean that He approves but we all have the right to choose. Yet we must know that no matter what chooses we make, good/bad, there are consequences.
Romans 1:26-27: For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
This passage is unique it is the only place in the Bible that specifically refers to same-gender sexual behavior.
BOTTOM LINE HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN.
I think some folks need to check themselves.
Not everybody subscribes to their religious hocus pocus, or the terminology of “sins”. Telling people that you love them anyway because “we all fall short” is a crock. You DID make a judgement against gays if you decided not to agree with their civil rights. It’s not up to any Bible fanatic to tell others what their shortcomings are. Muslims can do the same thing to them. Christ didn’t denounce gay people. Anyone who has a real “relationship” with him would know that.
All I can say is that I feel you, Bella. I feel you really hard on some of the things you’ve said.
I’m glad everyone can come out and respectfully give their opinions, so here’s mine:
Not everyone in America shares the same religious beliefs. Religious beliefs have no place in legislation. No one has the right to decide/undermine/judge other taxpayer’s rights. If they are good enough to pay taxes/fight wars/vote/everything else, they are good enough to get married.
To answer a couple questions.
1. Yes, Polygamy and slavery are sins. As I stated before, they are in the Bible but God does not condone them. For example, One of the wisest men on earth King Solomon was a polygamist and God reproached him for it and in the end it led to his demise.
2. Some people may be born gay, for others it is a choice. But being born that way does not make it right. The Bible says that We were all born in sin and shaped in iniquity and that there is no good in the flesh but that we must be transformed daily by the renewing of our minds.
If you believe in God you must believe in the power of deliverance and he has said that he is faithful to forgive all of our sins. He provides us with redemption and the ability to turn away from those things that do not please him. Of course it will take diligence and practice, just like quitting smoking. Some can quit cold turkey, and for others its a process. There may still be temptation out there but if we stay close to God and not put ourselves in the way of temptation we need not live outside of his will.
3. Why care if its not you?
Christians are called to righteousness and our love and character are to positively effect the world around us.
Those things that are at first anomolys may be gradually accepted as norms in society. As a Christian, one of our highest callings is to raise christian children. It becomes harder and harder to guide my child in the right path when she is surrounded by sin that society calls normal. For example, sex outside of marriage is a sin. And society has gradually claimed it to be ok, natural and expected. The moral decay has become so pervasive that people now contemplate giving contraceptives to elementary and middle schoolers. Now I must begin even earlier protecting my child from these temptations. And my love for my fellow men and women would not allow me to see them go astray and not say anything.
We do not live in a vacuum. The laws and practices in one state or group of people will eventaully effect us all.
I want the world to be the best and most loving place it can be and I believe that Gods will for all of our lives will reveal our greatest destiny.
Love this discussion.
I am not a religious person (haven’t been to church in years) and I couldn’t quote biblical cripture or anything like that.
However, I understand why voters voted to protect the definition of marriage. I think it is important to remember, while we’re all caught up in the emotion of the issue, that the amendment in California was strictly a free-speech issue. The freedom of the majority to DEFINE what marriage is.
For centuries we have know marriage as being between one man and one woman. In the past people of other races were not allowed to marry but their unions still fit the popular definition of marriage. The violence and hatred that stems from interracial relationships was used as an argument to prohibit them. Even today, despite interracial marriages being legal under the law, they still account for a large percentage of divorces and IR couples face a lot of discrimination. Not allowing people of other races to marry had more to do with quelling violence and “keeping the peace” than the relationships themselves.
Gay marriage is totally different. Marriage is the foundation of society. The purpose of which is to provide stability for citizens and if those citizens choose to have children, those children will grow up with two parents of the opposite sex - each providing a biological benefit to the child. Study after study has shown that children do best when they are raised by their biological parents. Even adoption isn’t the most ideal circumstance for children. Of course if a child is facing starvation or violence any loving environment is better, but ideally each child should grow up with both his or her actual parents. This is SCIENTIFICALLY the best way for a society to function. And while many people choose to not marry or have children, it is the goal for most citizens.
The government has a resposiblity to protect its citizens and elevate the most rewarding lifestyles over all others. Heterosexual marriage and children is the most rewarding and beneficial lifestyle for a society. This is not religion, it’s just fact. Married people with children live longer, are more financially stable and tend to be happier. They in turn can purchse goods and services to keep up an economy, tend to not use and abuse drugs, and don’t have bastard children that are not taken care of. Again, I realize many married heteros with kids are not perfect, but that doesn’t mean that the married, hetero w/kids lifestyle isn’t the ideal. It still is the most rewarding lifestyle for a society. So the government needs to protect this because they benefit directly.
Once we start redfining and denying what is ideal, you start to get into trouble. For a society to maintain itself it needs to have a birthrate of 2.1. In most ocuntries where they have legalized gay marriage, the birthrate has gone way down. And those populations have been replaced (like in Europe) by people that tend to be vehemently against homosexuality (muslims).
If homosexuals want to committ to each other (which I think is great) and have a wedding I am all for it. But the governement should be allowed to promote the most ideal lifestyle for its citizens because it is their job to protect ALL of its citizens and maintain order and a standard that willl ensure the country continues to prosper. Part of the reason we are in the troubles we are in is due to the decline of the nuclear family (single parents or two very absent parents).
I am not for discrimination, but I am for stability and prosperity. Government-sanctioned Marriage is not a right, it is a privlege. One that some may take for granted, but it still is a privlege.
This is not the United States of Christianity. Everybody comes out of the shadows to tell us what their book of fairy tales prescribes, but nobody asked you! We have a separation of church and state in this country. That’s hard to wrap some brains around, I know. Legislation doesn’t come from the pulpit.
“Being born that way does not make it right.”
Even if the God y’all supposedly love made people that way? Wow, if that’s not an agenda, I don’t know what is. They’ll even doubt the Almighty One to spite the gays. LOL.
afrobello, i’m not sure if you indirectly directing your comments toward me, but i don’t think that name calling necessary. and when did saying we all fall short become a crock? and when does believing in religion have to be belittled? i don’t think that’s fare. is that not a judgement from you?
the scary and sad thing about this topic is that it leaves people on both sides of the fence, calling each other names, and telling strangers about who they are and whether they have a real or fake “relationship” with Christ. Subjects like this make it hard to say “hey let’s agree to disagree without being disagreeable”. in the end both groups of people end up being hurt and offended and there is not resolution. we will all be judged by our actions. not everyone who believes in the Bible will actually do what it says…this goes back to all falling short. NO ONE IS PERFECT. i’m not the one to start wagging my finger in anyones face. we all have an oppinion, and everyone will always have a justification for their actions whether we agree with it being right or wrong.
To all the so-called Christians that have commented and used their religion to bash LGBT folks and justify their exclusion from marriage based upon your religious beliefs; keep the following in mind.
The bible has been re-written and translated and tinkered with an untold number of times.
In the past the bible has been used to justify slavery, women being the property of their husbands and burning people at the stake.
All of you protestant Christians should also keep in mind that the religious demographics of the U.S. are changing and changing fast. In just a few short years you, Protestants, will no longer be the majority. Catholic Christians will be the majority. When this happens, if we as a nation, continue to use religion to enact laws, will have the Vatican dictating what you should and should not be able to do.
And looking even further into the future, Islam is the number one religion in the world. So expect to adhere to Sharia Law based upon the Qur’an at some point as well.
I suppose many of you will start acknowledging the separation of Church and State once your religion is a minority religion.
And one more thing: for all of you that keep saying the being gay is a choice let me ask you this, when did you decide to be heterosexual? Tell us all about the conversation you had with yourself when you decided this. I really want to hear it.
Common sense would tell most people that it would be very unlikely that people would choose homosexuality considering that gay people have such a hard way dealing with discrimination and violence aimed at the LGBT community. In some countries people are killed by law for being gay. And in some countries like the U.S. LGBT people are killed for sport.
Even if you are a religious person, that shouldn’t preclude you from having a little common sense.
smh… Afrobella, thank you thank you thank you for this wonderful post. It is so uplifting to hear your voice and the voices of other supportive sisters on this topic. Being raised in the black church, I have had the time of my life dealing with my sexual orientation. I KNEW I was gay from a very young age. This was certainly not a choice; never in my right mind would I have made a choice like that in the type of community I had to deal with on a daily basis. I have been condemned to pieces, belittled, heard the “Adam & Steve” sermons, prayers against lesbianism, been laid hands on, counseled, you name it. I struggled back and forth through high school, wished it away, prayed it away, everything. Church had always been a peaceful and supportive place for me and I grew up dependent on that love so when given the choice between my sexuality and my faith, I chose Christianity hands down. And I tried and tried to become someone I was not until I realized I hated myself. I hated my religion. I was insanely confused although I was sure on one thing. I was still gay.
I asked God to teach me how to love. I figured if I could start with his greatest commandment, everything else would fall into place. Coming from my Christian background I believed that if I loved him first (because I found it much easier to love a perfect being than to try and love myself) then I could learn to love me next, and finally I would learn to love someone else.
I am still on that journey. And I do love myself now. And I accept myself regardless of whether or not anyone else does. And I’ve also learned to love someone else. And SHE is an angel. And WE are happy.
But the scars of religion still remain. I am still in limbo about who or what I believe because I can’t grow in a mindset that asks me to hate myself in the name of loving the Creator of Love. It just does not make sense to me. To this day I carry all of that baggage and although my family is still very much Christian, even when I go to church with them, a part of me is not there. And the part of me that is there doesn’t want to be (lol). I think that strong Black Christian Lesbian women like Tami are AMAZING. I admire your strength. Because I know how hard it is. I am considering seeking out a church in my area that is more open minded but my mind has so many scars…
I wonder if I would one day have the courage to try to explain this to the many ministers and churchfolk who tried to help me “change”. Would it change their minds? Would they even care?
[[Whew]] That was long I know. But thanks Afrobella, this is one place on the web {and in the world} I feel it is ok to just be me =)
Soul Cookbook, thank you for your thoughts. i have to say that i’m in agreement.
I know this is off on another tangent and I don’t want to start an argument, I really don’t… but to the person who says “marriage is the foundation of society”– Hrunh? (*said in Scooby Doo voice*) So I guess unmarried people regardless of sexual orientation are useless to society at large unless they marry and procreate? Should they all be shuttled off to monasteries and convents? What about people who marry and choose not to have children–are they not following God’s will?
Soul Cookbook I agree with part of your argument. However there are some things I have issues with . You said that, “Married people with children live longer, are more financially stable and tend to be happier.They in turn can purchse goods and services to keep up an economy, tend to not use and abuse drugs, and don’t have bastard children that are not taken care of. ” Are you referring to just heterosexual people or people in general? Aren’t homosexuals people too? Married homosexuals would not be able to do any of the above? Its been said that most homosexual couples tend to be more well off and better educated than some heterosexual couples. At least that’s how I see it living here is S.Florida. Also, I doubt the population in the U.S. would decline if homosexuals could marry. In Europe the population has been on the decline for sometime, thats without the instiution of gay marriage. I do agree that marriage is a privlege, a privlege that should all people should have. Regardless of sexual orientation.
I do not people people should be able to vote on others civil rights. We would still be slaves if that were a common practice.
I find it fascinating that some people, Christians included, fixate on certain “sins” such as abortion and gay lifestyles, but there is no comparable uproar to divorce, gluttony, or sloth.
In my opinion, some people find it easy to fixate on abortion and homosexuality because they consider those sins that they would NEVER partake in. Thus, it makes it easy for them to throw the stone of judgment. Why? Quite simply: It makes them feel better about themselves and the sinful things they do every day to cast stones at others.
But, I bet if a law passed that only two plates can be used per buffet at Shoney’s because gluttony is a sin, there would be people protesting from coast-to-coast.
@ Niki
I was the one who said marriage is the foundation of society. Yes, that is the truth. Every study that has been done on this issue, and even if you bump studies and just look at societies that are the most prosperous, heterosexual marriage is PROMOTED BY TH AT SOCIETY. Meaning things like tax breaks are given to people that are married and have children. Why do you think the government gives you a break on taxes and gives you credits when you have children and are married? The gov’t HATES to give away money. But they do this to ENCOURAGE people to get married and have a few children. This is because the traditional, nuclear family is the most likely to contribute to society in a positive way. I am not saying that single people don’t because they do in their own way. But in terms of the economy, military service, education, security, home ownership, etc. Married people with children are less likely to committ crimes, default on loans, need gov’t assistance, etc.
And single people after a certain age do become a drag on society unless they have a good amount of money and a good job. Sorry, this is just fact. If you don’t make enough money to pay federal income tax, you are a drag on society. Most high crime neighborhoods are made up of unmarried people. Most cities with high rates of STD’s consist primarily of unmarried people. Marriage is a stabilixer, whether you want to believe it or not. And despite the media’s goal to destroy marriage and make it obsolete, it still is very relevant and will always be.
And I never said ANYTHING about religion. My thoughts are religion-free. I do not use religion to justify anything.
I agree w/ you totally Bella. Excellent post, you’re presenting this in a thoughtful heartfelt way to get some good dialogue going here.
@Nina,Bohemian Bookworm & Get Togetha, I’m with you.
Another thing that I’d like to add is, once you start trying to pick & choose which rights you give/withhold from groups of people for ANY reason, that is a VERY slippery slope & one where it becomes all a matter of interpretation. You don’t want to go there, cause where does it end? Who’s to say who’ll be next on the chopping block, so to speak?
Secondly, what difference does it make whether someone chose to be gay or not? It’s a matter of CIVIL rights, I don’t care if they chose their lifestyle or they were born that way, it in no way diminishes their right to equal access & protection under the law. They’re citizens, they pay their taxes just like you & I. It isn’t fair to take someone’s civil rights away even if you don’t understand or agree with the lifestyle they’re living.
And to those of you quoting Scripture, religion shouldn’t be a factor in this. Please, dig a little deeper into yourselves. I mean, you’re saying that you don’t “hate” gays, but…. that still you think they’re wrong somehow & therefore shouldn’t have the same rights as everyone else. Regardless of whether you hate them or not, ultimately, you still don’t think they’re entitled to the same rights under the law as you are because they’re gay, so…you’re just as complicit as the rest of these folks, levels of hate notwithstanding. Compare that to how many White folks back in the Jim Crow/pre-Civil Rights movement loved their Black nannys, maids, servants, etc, trusted us to cook their food, run their households, raise their children & whatever else, but…still felt that Blacks didn’t possess the mental capabilities to vote & be entitled to live/work/go to school anywhere they wanted. How is that different? They used to use the Bible also to justify keeping us in our places… Just because those White folks didn’t flat out “hate” us didn’t make their oppression of us any less harmful, because ultimately, since they felt superior, they felt entitled to keep us as a people locked into a much lesser way of life.
And as a Los Angeles, CA resident, as a straight Black woman, I was very dismayed at the passing of Prop 8. I think it’s horrible & flat out hateful & discriminatory. Thanks in part to Cali’s effed-up proposition system, the ease of which things can make it onto the ballot here. The system needs an overhaul, I can tell you that….
Now, I understand some Black folks’ knee jerk reaction when this issue is compared to civil rights, but that is correct comparison.
Bottom line, to deny gays the right to get married is a violation of their civil rights. Period. Why? Because being married automatically provides a certain level of protections & “respect” that other relationship unions just don’t receive in this society. There is a certain “legitimacy” automatically afforded to married couples. Look at how the Arkansas law stops unmarried couples from adopting, so does that means that the folks in civil unions will now be among the ineligible?
Historically, issues of this importance haven’t been decided by the general population anyways, it usually comes down to the courts/law system, as it should. There are some cases now in court here challenging the legitimacy of Prop. 8’s passing, so maybe they’ll make some headway here.
I know there’s talk of putting another proposition on the ballot in 2010, to repeal this Prop. 8, but sad to say, I don’t have much confidence in the ability of people as a collective to do the right thing here at the polls regarding this volatile issue.
Because, quite frankly, I think if we’d left civil rights & interracial marriages to the whims of the gen. population, Bella, it would STILL be illegal in some states for you & your boo to be legally married, & we Black people might still be waiting to overcome!
Sorry I’ve gone on for so long, but this issue bothers me. When I saw the crushed look on some of my gay friends’ faces on Nov. 4, I just couldn’t bear it. It hurt to look at them. Royally sucked.
Okay, now I’ll shut up.
Peace.
LOL @ Femmejoli
I agree!
@ NikkiJ
“Are you referring to just heterosexual people or people in general? Aren’t homosexuals people too? Married homosexuals would not be able to do any of the above?”
I am only referring to hetero couples because they fit the standard definition of marriage. Of course homosexuals are people, I would never claim otherwise. My point was the governemnt has an obligation to promote the most ideal lifestyle for its citizens. Homosexuality, while it is not a choice, is still not the ideal. Why would the government equate heterosexual marriage with gay marriage if one is clearly more beneficial to society. And yes, the fact that heterosexual couples can have children automatically makes their unions more beneficial. They can directly, without the aid of anyone else, make new citizens that they in turn can raise with each other. Anything else is more complicated and requires more money and oversight. Look at the cost of the child welfare system and all of its complications. Any society would want to limit the use of foster and adoption systems.
So while I completely agree that gay people are just as important and should have the same rights as anyone else - I am not going to say that gay marriage provides an equal benefit to society. It just doesn’t by nature. This doesn’t mean that gays should be discriminated against or face violence or anything like that. But it does mean that the gov’t can draw a line in the sand and say this (heterosexual marriage between one adult man and one adult woman) is what we will sanction. Anything outside of this we will not.
Thank you so much for this post. I agree with everything you wrote here and couldn’t have stated it better myself.
Honestly, there are so many more pressing issues in our society that indicate “moral decay”, and I find it interesting that people would choose to ignore those in favor of something that probably that no effect on their lives. It worries me that in the year 2006, 21% of all kids under the age of 18 were classified as living in poverty here in the US. There are so many starving kids out there, kids who are being sold into child slavery sex rings, divorce rates are going through the roof, and we’re still debating on how other people should live their lives?
I can’t understand anyone who says that being homosexual is somehow a choice, as if we all consciously make the decision of being heterosexual. If you want to use religion to justify your reasoning, more power to you. However, it should also be noted that there people out there who actually DON’T believe in God, and therefore, should not have anyone’s beliefs imposed on them, especially if they’re a law-abiding citizen. Like someone else said before me, if they pay taxes, serve our country in Iraq, own property,vote, etc.. then who are we to infringe on their rights? It’s a shame how some people can be so blind to the multiple forms of oppression so many of us face on a daily basis.
Also, to the people who keep saying that if we left civil rights up to voters where would we be -I’d say probably in the same spot if not better off.
It’s funny how the American people, when left to their own free will, voted to elect a black man as President. But we assume that those same people would vote to send us back to slavery or whatever other analogy is used by people wanting to pick and choose when to “let the public decide”.
it’s also funny that forced integration led to blacks being re-segregated which still exists to this day. So even when you brow-beat people to accept something, they still have a way of getting around it (redlining, anyone?). We just had a supreme court decision last spring that basically said that race cannot be used as a determining factor in school assignments - so essentially schols distrcits can continue to be segregated and black students will continue to attend low performing, sub-standard schools. So this glorious court that you all are hoping will overturn the will of the people may not be so glorious in the end.
Amen. You’re preaching to the choir in this corner. As a black woman (who also happens to be in an interracial marriage), I haven’t forgotten my history. I, for one, would never have wanted to go through what an African-American living in the fifties and sixties might have gone through just to go to school or get a decent job. Nor would I have wanted to go through what Ms. Loving went through just to be with the person that she loved.
People like to romanticize the past like everyone had it great and we always had the same opportunities. That’s why I’m a firm believer in progress and change and not being afraid of it. Personally, I would think that the recent anti-gay amendments are unconstitutional and I hope they get challenged and defeated. You cannot and should not be able to dictate how someone else runs their life…just like you don’t want anyone (especially the government) involved in yours. I remember my joy at Obama getting elected being a little tempered by the fact that all those “anti-gay” amendments passed. We’re in 2008 people–not 1958. My hope is that, if our generation doesn’t wake up and come to its senses, that our children’s generation will. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, their right to have their marriages recognized by the law and have all the benefits that come with that is THE NEXT CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT. We’ll be seeing a lot more marches and demonstrations across the country just like we did with for African-American rights until the country comes to its senses.
Ditto on ‘legislation should not come from the pulpit’. The founding fathers knew to separate church and state for that reason. For that same reason, I don’t think that ’some’ should get to impose their religious views on ‘others’ and the ban should never even have been up for the public to vote on. Imagine if their had been a nation-wide vote on whether to give black people the vote or not back in the day. Scary, huh?
@ Soul Cookbook–so according to your logic, I guess me, at the ancient age of 33, who has yet meet the man of my dreams, marry and have children either needs to marry the first fool who asks or shoot myself in the head at age 40 because I will be a “drag on society” living in some hovel, shooting drugs and having unprotected sex, robbing all the good married folk? LOL Thanks for providing me with a chuckle for the day.
HaitanRoots, CoilyField, DblDee and all my Christian sisters, here is some scripture for y’all…
Matthew 19: 3-12
3Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4″Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
7″Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”
11Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
This passage points out a few things to me:
Jesus and Moses were against divorce, Jesus called it a sin, adultery. But yet they did not stand in the way of people who felt that they needed to get a divorce.
In that same vein, why should we as Christians oppose other people’s wishes? Yes I get that it is incredibly hard to raise children in a society that makes pre-marital sex and other sins okay, but it is not impossible. You are a living testament that it possible because you still believe in it, so why do you think that people being able to get spousal health insurance, tax breaks etc* will stop you from raising your children by providing them with all the tools available to you as a christian?
*It may sound trivial, but it is one of the many reasons people want to get married.
I couldn’t care one way or another, but I do not agree with this being compared to the Civil Rights Movement. Even if I wanted to…I couldn’t hide being black, BUT if someone that is homosexual decides they don’t want anyone to know they are gay…no one will know. So in a sense…they do have a choice on how their lives can be lived. When a person sees me…they see that I am a Black woman and there isn’t a “closet” big enough to hide that. It is what it is…
@ Niki
When did I say that people should just marry for the sake of marrying? I said that heterosexual marriage for the purpose of child bearing provides the greatest rewards for a society. Period.
But please don’t pretend like the “spinster” isn’t a very real stereotype. So is the “lonley old man”. I am not saying there is anythingwrong with you not being married, but there is a reason why non-married people pay higher taxes, have a harder time getting approved for loans, etc. It is because our society VALUES marriage because it stabilizes people. That doesn’t mean that people who aren’t married aren’t stable, but if you follow trends with things like alcohol and drug abuse, abortions, prostitution, and other “ills” that affect a society negatively - there is a large percentage of people that have never been married or are divorced.
When you have other people depending on you, you tend to do better. Isn’t that obvious?
@ ceecee, i do believe that everyone should have civil liberties. everyone should be able to have healthcare, etc. if you reread my comments, i never actually said that i wasn’t in agreement with that. my apologies for not being clear.
@ Soul Cookbook
I feel really complelled to say this, because I live in Canada where gay marriage has been legal since 2005. Full marriage. Not just civil Rights. I’ll just respond to what you said though.
“I was the one who said marriage is the foundation of society..heterosexual marriage is PROMOTED BY TH AT SOCIETY. Meaning things like tax breaks are given to people that are married and have children.”
In Canada, tax breaks are given to all married/common law couples with children. All of them. Hetero/homosexual. And out of all the industrialized countries in the world, Canada has one of the lowest public deficits. Because it’s not that the family has a mom & dad & two kids. It’s because the family has children. Tax breaks for people with children aren’t to foster heterosexuality in society. It’s to help children grow in good homes. A child’s development is independent of a parent’s sexual orientation. How many straight kids with straight parents do you know that think abouttheir parents getting it on all day?
“And single people after a certain age do become a drag on society unless they have a good amount of money and a good job. Sorry, this is just fact.”
Actually, if you’re worried about people being able to contribute tax dollars, you should then be all for the gays and gay marriage. Gay men (on average) make about 28% less than their counterparts. And if we’re looking at this from a secular, economic views, we all know then that wage differentials harm the economy. With people making less, they are spending less and paying less tax dollars. Also, to get married, you must pay for a miarriage licence. Disallowing (is that a word?) gay people from getting married=lost taxation revenues. And of course, then they have the actualy wedding ceremony. Excpet they can’t, since they can’t get married= more lost taxation revenues. And so on and so forth.
“If you don’t make enough money to pay federal income tax, you are a drag on society.”
Actually, if you make income, you pay income tax, so this is, with all due respect, a moot point. As soon as you make more than $3,000 you pay income tax. And most adults that don’t live in adject poverty make more than $3,000.
“Most high crime neighborhoods are made up of unmarried people. Most cities with high rates of STD’s consist primarily of unmarried people. Marriage is a stabilixer, whether you want to believe it or not.”
The crime and poor health of these neighborhoods isn’t cause by people not being married. It’s cause (for the most part) by crime and lack of education. It’s again, not having a mom and a dad that they are stable. It’s because they have access to education and don’t live off of a minimum wage job.
Also, I quote a reecent (2003) study done by the Centre for Law and Social Policy done on exactly what you were talking about, I found: “While the increased risks faced by children raised without both parents are certainly reason for concern,
the majority of children in single-parent
families grow up without serious
problems. In addition, there continues to
be debate about how much of the
disadvantages to children are attributable
to poverty versus family structure, as well as about whether it is marriage itself that makes a
difference or the type of people who get married.”
I found it here: http://www.clasp.org/publications/marriage_brief3_annotated.pdf
” And despite the media’s goal to destroy marriage and make it obsolete, it still is very relevant and will always be.”
This statement actually confuses me. Isn’t gay marriage the promotion of marriage, rather than it’s destruction?
“And I never said ANYTHING about religion. My thoughts are religion-free. I do not use religion to justify anything.”
I hope I didn’t either.
* also, since I live in a country that does allow two consenting adults to tie the knot, I should also point out that nobody elses marriages have been affected by these unions. Our society has not fallen apart. Our government is not poor. The roads are still being built, children are still going to school, and all is generally the same. Except we have more equality…or perhaps that’s the wrong way to say it. Maybe I should word it liek this instead: we have a borader definition of equality.
Compassion goes a very long way. Unfortunately, I believe it to be harder than love to give.
I’m still trying to figure out what the issue is. Is it the word marriage? For some, yes. Or is it being able to receive benefits and rights as in heterosexual relationships?
Having been married and since divorced, I said I would never marry again. A civil union sounds good for me. But I do believe that the same rights you give a spouse, should be given to a partner. Marriage shouldn’t be the deciding factor in that. It’s love.
From Melia
“I couldn’t hide being black, BUT if someone that is homosexual decides they don’t want anyone to know they are gay…no one will know.”
That can’t be your best argument. What we call ‘the Civil Rights Movement’ will probably soon be known as the ‘First Civil Rights Movement’. As people of African decent, we do not have some special hold on that phrase. I believe the ‘Second Civil Rights Movement’ will precisely be gays having to demand equal rights as opposed to waiting around for people to do the right thing.
“Tax breaks for people with children aren’t to foster heterosexuality in society. It’s to help children grow in good homes.”
With all due respect, Grace, while Canada and the US may be similar in a lot of ways we are still different countries. In America we have a ton of gov’t sponsored programs for people with children that aren’t married. You can get plenty of assistance as a single parent to ensure your child doesn’t grow up in abject poverty. But for the individual parent, there is no benefit - because the gov’t would still prefer for you to be married.
“The crime and poor health of these neighborhoods isn’t cause by people not being married. It’s cause (for the most part) by crime and lack of education.”
Actually, it is caused by a decline in the nuclear family. Most neighborhoods in America that are high-crime consists of single unwed women and their children. Look at the South Side of Chicago - they have one of the lowest rates of marriage out of any urban city. Same with a lot of other places like South Central Los Angeles and Detroit. When criminals know that there are not a lot of non-violent, stable men living in an area they are more likely to set up shop. Why don’t people run drugs out of homes in upper middle class neighborhoods? Because most of the families there are nuclear, in-tact families. There isn’t as much pressue on “survival” so more attention can be paid to maintaining law and order. So yes, crime is a result of the breakdown of the family. Why do most people turn to crime anyway? For money. Why are they poor? Because there is typically only one income in the household. Why? Because Mom and Dad were not married which made it easier from one to leave. And lack of education, again, is a direct result of poor family structure. When one parent has to put all of their efforts and energy into just maintaining, it is easy for education to be overlooked. Plus a lot of kids from single parent homes just want to earn money to get out of poverty. Spending time and money on an education isn’t as attractive as just going out and trying to make it happen. Sacrificing your early adulthood in class after class vs. making a quick buck to help make ends meet? So the lack of education in these areas is still connected to family structure.
“While the increased risks faced by children raised without both parents are certainly reason for concern,the majority of children in single-parent
families grow up without serious problems,”
What exactly do they define as serious? Because I look at the rates of rape and molestation in the black community due to single parents leaving their kids with wayward relatives or stragers as a serious problem. And they did agree that it is reason for concern, not that it was OK. A paycheck does not replace a mom or a dad.
“This statement actually confuses me. Isn’t gay marriage the promotion of marriage, rather than it’s destruction?”
No, because gay marriage is not marriage. It is redefining the word to fit an agenda. And I never said that gay marriage would destroy marriage, I said the media is trying to destroy it. They have an agenda because the more uneducated, lazy, insecure, liberal-minded people there are, the more money they make. So by waging a war against marriage, which they have been doing for decades, they can indoctrinate an entire generation with the idea that marriage is worthless, antiquated and oppressive for women. None of which is true.
@ Kweenie
What exactly is doing the right thing? People voted for what they believed in. What exactly is the gay community owed here? I voted No on 8 because I didn’t like the fear tactics the other side was using but since the ban I have begun to regret my vote.
This is bigger than just the rights of homosexuals. What about the rights of Christians to practice their religion and believe what they believe? I don’t classify myself as a Christian, but if I did I would fear for my rights to freedom of religion. Churches are being harassed simply because they chose to exercise their base and had people donate money. People are being blacklisted simply for their views. No one went out and beat up gay people or busted up their ceremonies or torched West Hollywood. People simply took their right to vote (which black people didn’t always have) and simply voted what they believe.
So for the gay community to now act as if they have been robbed of a right that some judges decided to give them is a little indignant, if you ask me. I don’t care what you do in your private life or who you love or why. Most people that support traditional marriage don’t hate gay people and some even have gay friends. They just feel differently about what constitutes marriage. Not love, just marriage. Not sex, just marriage. Not the ability to walk down the street and hold your partners hand, just the word “marriage”.
And for those thinking that it’s “just a word” and therefore should be no big deal, you’re wrong. “Nigger” was just a word too. But we all get pretty heated wehn discussing who can or can’t say it or whatever. Words have meaning and you can’t just arbitrarily change the meeting to fit your need.
Wow. I was reading some of the responses. What can I say that hasn’t already been said. I do hope that whatever side of the fence you are on, you can see the others point of view respectfully with your hearts wide open.
BTW, I do support Prop 8.
I really don’t understand the opposition. Seriously, how would the passage of Amendment 8 affect opponents’ lives?!
@Soul Cookbook. I appreciate the objectivity, analysis, sound reasoning and looking at both sides. Thank you.
@ Soul Cookbook
I am terribly saddened that you say that people weren’t getting assaulted for being gay or supporting gay rights. You should reallly go here: http://coilhouse.net/2008/10/22/youtube-brings-on-the-great-prop-8-debate/#comment-10105
and then scroll down to the comment where one of the writers of the blog tells the story of being, well, assaulted.
Just because one person’s religion dictates that being gay is a sin does not make it law. I don’t believe in that God or religion so why should that God and religion dictate how everyone lives. There is more than one religion out there and for some of us there is more than one God. People are born gay, it is not a choice. Who would choose to be ostracized and belittled and hated and discriminated against? And a civil union is NOT the same as a marriage nor does it give you the same rights w/o the title. I know first hand that it doesn’t. I don’t understand why so many people chose to discriminate and yet say that they are just following the bible. That is a cop out! If a gay couple gets married it does not change my straight marriage one bit! I am still married. Gay people are PEOPLE too, just like any other minority, why shouldn’t they have the same HUMAN RIGHTS as the rest of us?
I live in SF and am furious that friends and family who are dear to me have suddenly lost a right because of ignorance and close mindedness.
Does “love thy neighbor” only apply if your neighbor is straight?
@ Soul Cookbook
You said that after a certain age, if a single person doesn’t have a good job or money they become a drag on society. So a person’s worth is determined only by how much they can financially contribute to society? There’s no other meaningful contributions that a person can make? Well I guess that’s the Western Capitalistic view.
Also, you keep saying homosexual unions are best for society, but where is the comparison? Which society is made up mostly of homosexual unions? There simply aren’t THAT many gay people.
Of course for survival of the species, there must be heterosexual relations. However, the vast majority of humans are straight. Has anyone considered that homosexuality could be nature’s form of population control?
I am a lesbian. I just had a huge argument with my mother about prop 8 yesterday. It is amazing how a woman that claims she loves me is against me, her child, having equal rights. That is the most painful thing to endure, but is speaks volumes about society as a whole. I hope none of you are subject to being hated because of who you love. It is not a feeling that can be described.
My mother is by no means a religious person, except when she wants to condemn me to hell for my “choice”. Her argument went further in details of how she wishes the gays didn’t exist and we should not throw it decent people’s faces. I think that is reflective of alot of people’s attitudes. ” I don’t like it so it should not exist.” That is much of the problem. You do not have to like me, but why hurt me.
The religious argument does not hold water. The US is NOT a theocracy. This country was founded on the principles of religious freedom. Yes, the constitution was formulated on the basis that religion and government are sepearate.
Furthermore, the role of representative government is to reflect the will of the majority IF is does not trample the rights of the minority.
I have never felt a want or need to change anyone’s mind about homosexuality. But once you infringe on my right to have equality, that is where the problem exists.
@ Grace - Thanks for some actual FACTUAL insight into this topic.
@ Soul Cookbook -
I’m not even going to address the numerous examples of both plain misinformation & you using your own opinion as fact in your increasingly self-contradictory posts. My fingers can’t even type that fast & I don’t have that type of time.
You’re entitled to your opinion about what environs would be most beneficial to form a stable “nuclear family”, but overall, I find that you’re not that well informed about this subject in the legal sense, beyond what you feel it SHOULD be about.
Case in point:
” that the amendment in California was strictly a free-speech issue. The freedom of the majority to DEFINE what marriage is. ”
WTF?! I mean seriously?! Did you even vote in Cali or are you just making this up?! Cause I’m looking at my voting booklet right here in front of me & under Prop 8, with choice #114 meaning a Yes vote & #115 meaning a No vote, it states that Prop 8 “eliminates the right of same-sex couples to marry.” I quote, verbatim, “Changes California Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry. Provides that only marriage between a man & a woman is valid or recognized in California.” It’s right on the ballot, plain as day for all to see.
This is not a “free speech issue”, this was an actual change to the state’s constitution to eliminate the rights of SOME of its people based on sexual orientation. And that is just plain wrong. I don’t care how you feel about it on a personal level. It is discrimination. It is a civil rights issue.
And also, it is totally different from an issue of free speech. How can you even compare the two?!
What you keep arguing & throwing up examples about, this whole gov’t having an interest in promoting hetero marriage as being the most optimal situation premise, has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Prop. 8 & similar amendments are about taking away FUNDAMENTAL rights every US citizen is entitled to. UNDER THE US CONSTITUTION, man!
You can feel however you want to feel about the right & wrong of it all or your varying degrees of comfort with the idea of it, but it still comes back to a limitation on a group’s fundamental rights. (BTW, SC, who told you marriage is a “privilege”? It’s a right, anyone at the age of consent can get married. It’s a right, not a privilege. Even Death Row inmates can get married.)
And this is where the “glorious” courts will come in, & probably, hopefully, overturn this shit. If not in the California Supreme Court, then in the US Supreme Court. The Court first & foremost has a responsibility to protect the fundamental rights of ALL of this country’s citizens.
And no, that may not mean that everyone will just embrace the concept of gays marrying & like it, but so what?! Every change takes time to get used to, one day, this will be a total non-issue.
It’s only a matter of time. Gay people had the right for the past 6 months to get married here in California & I’m betting not one person’s life was affected detrimentally by them exercising their constitutional freedoms, can I get some co-signing from any Bellas in Massachusetts or Vermont? Connecticut? Has the earth crumbled & caved in in any of your states since gay marriage was legalized there?
So for all of you that have a problem with it, you need to educate yourselves & keep this in the proper perspective. No one should have the right to just summarily take away the rights of someone else. No one.
Interesting comments. I do feel that CoilyFields hit the nail on the head and put things in perspective.
People often huff and puff at the thought of someone adhering to their religion and christianity gets bashed all the time and those who do not follow often will say …but does not your faith mean you should be doing abc d xyz…still I believe in God’s word and only HIS word and not that of man. The Bible is a tool but you need to have a relationship with God to truly understand His word and his view.
People have mentioned slavery but no where in the Bible is race mentioned. The passages used to justify slavery did not even support slavery and those people who lied on His word will have to answer to God. I personally cannot understand why the colour of my skin should be spoken of in the same light as someone’s sexuality whether that be by choice or not. No matter what I am part of the race that I am born into. It is stamped in my DNA
I am in the uk and they brought in civil partnerships. I just feel that marriage should be left as is, between a man and a woman. to redefine it will only add to further moral decline. Gay folk can have their own union. But that needs another name. Also what about those who are co-habiting will they get the same rights too. will those who have children but living seperately get the same rights too.
Many religions agree when it comes to homesexuality. My church teaches that we are not to hate people because of their sexuality choices. Though understand as a christian what God teaches. This can be done without bashing.
I am sure you will find other religions and countries where there is no tolerance whatsoever yet people blame christianity. Have that conversation God.
Just do you
But know that if you believe in God and have faith and choose not to adhere to what he says it is only HE who you will answer too, not any man.
There is nothing wrong with religion. The problems only occur when people pick and choose bits that suit them.
Is it such a problem to have a different name as they have in the uk. I am sure it is the sanctity of marriage that people voted for. statistics are statistics and can be used like any written text to prove or disprove any point
Blessings to all of you
oooh just spotted a typo
it should read ..Have that conversation with God
@flygirl72 would there be an issue if the union was given a different name instead of marriage. the only reason why i ask is that in the uk the whole emphasis prior to the civil union partnerships was on allowing gay couples equal rights to married straight couples.
@ Kweenie
Since you quoted me…surely you read my first sentence. I said I don’t care one way or another.As for my “best argument”…I have no argument on this because it is of no consequence to me. But to as what you refer to as the “first” Civil Rights Movement…check your facts…the movement of the 60s was not the first…and this current one that many are fighting for will not be the last. Love who you want, but just don’t expect everyone to agree with it. Be easy!
I didn’t realize your hubby was white. I’m in the same boat as you and I just….I can’t imagine not being free to love my boyfriend. He’s stubborn and trying at times but I love him deeply. For it to be illegal to love him……..that’s sickening.
We as a country took two steps forward and four backwards.
“I find it fascinating that some people, Christians included, fixate on certain “sins” such as abortion and gay lifestyles, but there is no comparable uproar to divorce, gluttony, or sloth.”
Thank you, thank you, thank you! This is so so true! Why aren’t people pouring millions to help mend broken marriages? Why are priests and pastors marrying people who are on their 2nd, 3rd or 4th marriage? Isn’t divorce a sin? Isn’t eating shellfish a sin (I don’t know a Christian who has turned down shrimp)? Isn’t wearing garment with 2 different materials a sin too?
Why the all out fight against love? As a Christian, I hear the anti-gay marriage stance often enough to know that these people are not being the light of God. We have gotten to the point where people run away from God because of Christians and not towards Him. Some are hiding their own hate-filled agenda’s behind the Bible. What fruits are we producing? How are we showing the same love and compassion that Christ taught by hating others?
We are all sinners, saved by grace. No sin is greater than any other sin. Wasn’t it Jesus who said, he without sin, let him cast the first stone? Wasn’t it Jesus who said before you take the speck out of your neighbors eye, pull the plank out of yours? Wasn’t it Jesus who said “Do unto others as you would have them do to you.” And again, “Whatever you do to the least of my brothers and sisters, that you do to Me.”
We are we so quick to point fingers and cite false and grossly incorrect “facts” to prove a point that is mute?
Instead of trying to be God, more people need to be trying to be like God (his traits, love, kindness, compassion, etc…) and the world would be a much better place.
71 comments and counting - I was expecting some responses but this is encouraging. And good. Yes - good because at least we’re discussing things civilly and sharing opinions and trying (TRYING)not to judge. This is a tough one, and it is difficult to present an opinion that doesn’t automatically polarize the opposite side. So to HaitianRoots, CoilyFields, Soul Cookbook, SoFrolushes - I respect you for stating your opinions. Obviously we disagree on several fundamental points, but I am glad you are here to speak your piece.
Also, SoFrolushes, I just saw that Elton John agrees with you - he is content to have a civil partnership, and thinks the word marriage will forever be the stumbling block for this struggle.
And again I will reiterate - in a country that promises freedom to its citizens, and believes in the separation for church and state, these propositions and amendments will not stand. They will eventually be legally overturned. Same sex marriage will inevitably have its own landmark supreme court case. And because the arguments against gay marriage are all ultimately steeped in religious reasoning, someday marriage between two consenting adults of any gender will be recognized as legal in the United States. It is only a matter of time.
I think gay marriage is going to become a reality here in the United States… and if you don’t want a gay marriage, be in a hetero one. Gay or straight, don’t cheat and creep around. And if you don’t want to get married, be single and stop sleeping around with whomever. Keep your legs closed for your own health and safety! Can I just say that I’m waiting for the protests on HIV rates in our community and on where the money for HIV prevention actually goes?
That said, I was not a fan of Olbermann’s special comment on the issue. He had some good points but when he brought slavery and interracial marriage into the mix, I wondered, just who are you talking to, Keith? I think he’s great but it seemed like he fell for the lie that it’s black folk’s fault that Prop 8 passed and he was trying to chastise black people.
I was called two days before election day by a No on 8 supporter who said legalizing gay marriage was the modern day equivalent of ending slavery. We all have our opinions but I think it’s a racist and wholly inappropriate comparison. I actually wondered if it was a Yes on 8 person trying to target black households and anger us into voting no because it was such a problematic comparison. AND I’m still waiting for the comparisons to the Jewish experience in the Holocaust but I think I’ll hear crickets before THAT gets voiced
Now I’m reading people’s blog posts where they’re saying that marching in a Prop 8 protest is like people marching in Selma. Oh really? Because dogs were chasing you? Because the Klan came and terrorized you and set your property on fire? Those sort of comparisons show a lack of discernment and an inability to understand what slavery and Jim Crow really entailed. And I love how people are all over the Loving case but why is it that there aren’t more interracial gay relationships? Why do I have my friends talking about the “white” gay bar and the “black” gay bar? Civil rights issue of our time? Because racism is over? Because my sons and millions of other black children don’t still attend de-facto segregated schools? I’m not going to engage in “Oppression Olympics” but I’m not feeling that comparison.
It’s also interesting to me to have had so many gay friends who have denounced marriage as a culturally conservative relic of a bygone age, and have said that it’s a piece of paper and nothing else, but now that we’re older, they want to get married! Maybe they just mocked it back in the day because they thought they could never have one. I don’t know. It just makes me chuckle a little bit.
In any case, I think the name calling on both sides (sinner/bigot homophobe/sodomite) has got to end. If you have issues with religion, don’t use gay marriage as your platform for telling folks why you think the Bible is a fairytale, and if you think gay people are sinners that are going to hell, say a prayer for them instead of holding up some sort of crazy sign that makes you look like some sort of weirdo.
I hear the refrain of Rodney King(bless his heart) ….Can we all get along?
Sometimes I’m a little slow on the uptake. Why aren’t civil unions acceptable? Same-sex couples would have the same rights as married spouses, tax breaks, property rights, adoption rights (in CA), etc.?
I don’t know anyone (in their right mind) who opposes civil unions.
However,if someone values marriage primarily as a religious union in the eyes of God, a sanctified sacrament that is a testament of faith, with state issues such as property ownership coming secondary, they are not going to support gay marriage.
I don’t disagree with that. Just as you wouldn’t want someone imposing their religious beliefs on you, you can’t impose your disregard for their beliefs of them.
Finally, I know I sound like Sean Hannity (ugh) but laws prohibiting same-sex marriages a